Talk:Orange Catholic Bible

Bahá'í

Why do you keep reverting from the correct spelling of the word Bahá'í. There are accent's and an aposrophe in the correct spelling. Also the correct name of the religion is Bahá'í Faith. -- Jeff3000 03:54, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I understand why the changes to Bahais, since that's the way it was in the book, but just because it was spelled incorrectly in the book, doesn't mean it has to be spelled incorrectly here. -- Jeff3000 04:07, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

No original research please

I've re-deleted the list of identifications. These section said themselves, that they are speculative and non-canonical. If there is a part which can be saved, please state explicit references within the novels. --Pjacobi 12:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

What's wrong with original research?

The names of all the books of the OCB and all the faiths which are responsible for it are all straight out of The Dune Encyclopedia and the various books of the Dune series. If you have a problem with the identifications, which are not canonical, please go through those sections line by line and delete those rather than slashing out all the canonical information with them.Hiergargo 14:36, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Original research is excluded by explicit Wikipedia policy: Wikipedia:No original research. So, if it is not in the novels, it cannot become part of an encyclopedic article.

References must be given for adding stuff, not for deleting, so I'll remove those sections again completely.

Pjacobi 14:54, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

exodus chapter references

Someone says that that the chapter references from Hebrew bible may not hold true for OCB. I would argue that this is a none sequiter. This part of the article says where the quotes came from and what they were based on. In this context accurate chapters and verses should be fully acceptable as they do not refer to the OCB.

Why no original chapter references

The chapter references that are given are ones taken from the Dune series, not ones referring back to where the source materials for the OCB came from. Adding references back to the original source material would therefore be confusing. If one wanted to make reference back to the original source material, one should make it clear that the chapter and verse references are those of the Hebrew Bible/New Testament/Qur’an/etc. and not those of the OCB.

I can see your point. It is useful however to point to the source material of quotes where possible, things like "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" are taken directly from Exodus. Perhaps simply a (derived from: (book/verse) format would be acceptable? Lostsocks 17:46, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I could go for that. Hiergargo 21:14, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Blog link?

Is an unofficial (e.g., non-author) blog acceptable as an external link?

• Commentary on the Orange Catholic Bible

Per item #11 of Wikipedia:External links#Links normally to be avoided:

11. Links to blogs and personal webpages, except those written by a recognized authority.

(I marked removal of this from the article as a minor edit by mistake.) --SandChigger 17:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Buddislamic

I removed the original links to Buddhism and (Sunni) Islam from this word a while back because

1. I think this sort of double link from parts of a single word is confusing, and
2. Buddislam is a fictional religion just like Mahayana Christianity and Zensunni Catholicism (which I also don't think should have separate links to their foundational components)

Is there an article on Dune religions? If not, why don't we create one and link these terms in Dune articles to it? Links to the real/original religions can go from there.

What think ye? --SandChigger 06:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

New Orange Catholic Bible website link

How is the site The Orange Catholic Bible Wiki relevant to this article?

The Orange Catholic Bible is a fictitious work. The website in question is concerned only with an attempt by fans to create an actual text:

• The purpose of this site is to wiki up a draft of the Orange Catholic Bible as talked about in the Dune series of books.

It is therefore fanfic and non-authoritative. Please discuss before re-adding the link. --SandChigger 01:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

If you take a look at the Dune Wiki for example you have tons of fan sites including muds and such which are external links to groups where are fanfic and non-authorative.

I would question how this is less relevant than the band link right above it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Orsa impetus (talk • contribs) 01:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

The Dune wiki has its own rules; fan sites here are highly debated, especially lately on the Dune universe and Dune (novel) pages. This is an excyclopedia, a source for information related to a topic, not a compendium of every Dune reference on the internet. Data here should be attributed to a canon source or notable derivative work; this OC Bible site is like me writing a 100-page blog about Feyd-Rautha's childhood. As far as the band, you're probably right that they're not notable enough, but if they actually have an album, they should stay. TAnthony 02:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

If a band is valid enough because they have an album, does that mean that the site link would be more valid if there was actually an OCB draft at that address? Is your beef with the fact that the work is a work that is just starting out? I mean, this is just science fiction. I thought that an attempt to flesh out what this page pertains to would be particularly relevant to creating some real depth to this topic. That is why it is an external link, not an attempt to construct the thing using Wikipedia. I acknowledge that the link is "bad" because of linking to an open wiki that is not stable, without a number of authors. Having said that the link above it is "bad" because it is used as a promotion tool. I don't really care if my link not included, but if you are going to throw the rulebook at me then I would protest the first link as well Orsa impetus 07:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

This is why talk pages exist, so we can debate the nebulous rules, LOL! In my opinion, the fact that the band took the name "Orange Catholic Bible" is the only potentially notable thing about them in this context. The band having an album, some mention in the mainstream press and maybe a following would make them reasonably notable, which would validate their inclusion in this article. However, I just looked at the link destination, did some searches, and they're probably some high school kids in the garage — not worthy of their own Wikipedia article and not worthy of inclusion here (I'm harsh!) So I'm taking it out.

The basic issue with the OCB wiki is that it's fan fiction, not that it's new or unstable or whatever. Some similar links do appear here and are kept for one reason or another, however, usually because of their notability in the mainstream. So at the point when the OCB wiki is built up and more known perhaps the Dune police will let it stay! LOL It's really not an attack on you or the wiki, there just have to be limitations or everybody with a site would list it on wikipedia. TAnthony 16:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Well when the site has some content and is a bit more relevant the http://ocb.dndb.org link will be going back in there. And there is nothing in the rules that can prevent it once it is a stable wiki with multiple contributors. Until then. Orsa impetus 23:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Having "some content" and multiple contributors would not necessarily make it notable. You may achieve something interesting, but it will NEVER be authoritative because it's fan fiction. One thing you need to do is rewrite and correct that first page. --SandChigger 10:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Thou shalt not's?

Listing the Decalogue as a reference for the "Thou shalt not make a machine..." injunction seems to be another example of the extreme dimness that seems to be seeping in around here. Any reason to keep it? --SandChigger (talk) 08:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

• I agree, the connection is tenuous at best. In fact I'm going to just go ahead and delete it, not like anyone cared either way the last two years ;) Markus Ramikin (talk) 15:44, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Why Orange

Could there be an explanation ?Hektor (talk) 22:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I seem to recall there was an interview with Herbert where he indicated "orange" comes from the "orange-men", that is Irish protestants. That traces the "orange" back to the Dutch aristocratic House of Orange. The idea behind "Orange-Catholic" then was to evoke a stong contradiction along the lines of "Protestant-Catholic" but more in the Irish vein where they continue to kill each other. This goes with all of his other syncretic amalgams of disparate religions such as "buddislam" and so forth.Ekwos (talk) 18:58, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Question: how should this be translated into another language? Should 'Orange' be untranslated (because it's a family name) or translated (as a color)? Is there any official position from Frank Herbert concerning Dune in other languages? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.157.231.232 (talk) 16:49, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

The OCB is not a real book

It isn't a real book, so the article shouldn't be written like it is. It is a literary device that exists in 3 basic sets of sources: (1) the original Dune series, (2) the new Dune books, (3) the Dune encyclopedia. These different takes on the OCB should be laid out and considered separately instead of integrating them to make some sort of overall OCB article like they are really talking about the same thing. I've made structural changes in the article in that direction.Ekwos (talk) 19:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Really, I feel that this article's information should be integrated into the articles on the respective novels and the rest discarded as irrelevant to a real-world encyclopedia. However, for the moment, I've just re-corrected the reference to a gift being a blessing of the "giver" to being the blessing of the "river", which is how it appears in Dune. It looks like that's gone back and forth at least a couple times, so I thought it would be worth mentioning here before it gets changed again. 71.32.169.136 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:31, 6 February 2010 (UTC).

"The gift is the blessing of the giver"

Hi, I'm new to this, so forgive any breaches in protocol. Growing up in a very vibrant suburb of Wynberg, Cape Town, South Africa, we had many Muslim 'people of colour' living among us (mostly white folk), even during the apartheid era. I've heard something very similar to the above quote a number of times: "The gift honours the giver", and was wondering if there was anyone out there who might know of a similar quotation and whether it comes from the Quran, or some other Arabic source document or whether it's simply a saying that got passed down through the generations. I no longer live in the area, and so my contact with my Muslim brethren is much curtailed, but this has revived an interest in looking further into the matter. Thank you. Galen777 (talk) 13:02, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

A little of googling seems to show that the saying you're talking about is most probably "Accepting the gift honours the giver", but I haven't found any real references for it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.66.209.206 (talk) 22:41, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

According to the non-canon Dune Encyclopedia (1984) by Willis E. McNelly

The non-canon Dune Encyclopedia (1984) by Willis E. McNelly should be removed as non-canon. There are errors that are not consistent with the book. Much of the Bible was replaced due to unpopularity in the vast length of the Bible, and the near destruction of the human race due to events leading up to the Butlerian Jihad. Thou shalt not disfigure the soul is a reference to Serena Butler, not the OCB. Ncsr11 (talk) 22:46, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Removed section of the origin of the name

I removed this section of the article about the etymology of the name. It's not sourced and in contradiction with the remainder of the article (and scholar sources) giving bouddhism as source for the orange adjective. --Dereckson (talk) 14:27, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Unsourced original text:

The name "Orange Catholic" was created by Frank Herbert as a combination of the symbolic colour of Northern Irish Protestantism with Catholicism. As such it alludes to the union of what have been called "salvation by faith" (Protestantism) and "salvation by works" (Catholicism) into a single tradition. As a result it is in keeping with the variety of other religious amalgams alluded to in the Dune series (such as the above-mentioned "Buddislamic" traditions), as well as the universalist nature of the sources listed above.

Sources about orange

The following sources could suggest a protestant etymology:

• https://books.google.fr/books?id=z3SF08iQGpEC&pg=PT160&lpg=PT160&dq=%22Orange+Catholic+Bible%22+protestant&source=bl&ots=rlmFaD4MX7&sig=NM6rZvmcaHGZo04xLYkUi5dapxE&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBGoVChMIh5qdnoiGyQIVRLcUCh2j-Q6C#v=onepage&q=%22Orange%20Catholic%20Bible%22%20protestant&f=false : merge between protestant and catholic